Many people object to people using artscroll gemaras. They have two problems:
- If one uses artscroll, he won't develop the skills and vocabluary to read a gemara properly.
- Torah is something one is supposed to struggle with. If uses artscroll, it's too easy.
The first argument only applies to someone who hasn't learned how to learn yet. It is a valid objection. But I think a person can use artscroll as a tool, not a crutch, to help him learn the vocab and reading skills of gemara. Artscroll puts the hebrew and english together on the translation side. You read the hebrew, then the english, and you can learn a lot more. You can review it by just looking at the gemara side, and looking at the english if u don't understand something. This way you can learn a lot more than by just trying to read the gemara side and you learn how to learn too. Also, the footnotes tell a beginner things he wouldn't have been able to learn at all without Artscroll.
I'm not sure what to think about the second objection. Should a person try figuring out everything the gemara will say about the mishna before reading it? Why is it OK to use Rashi? Obviously, your'e supposed think hard when you learn a gemara, but what's wrong with having it explained clearly so now you can think about the issues without having to figure out where the period is?
Which brings me to a third point. Why don't people use punctuated gemaras? Why don't they make a new gemara with a redone daf now that they have computers instead of using an old hand-set format printed by some gentile a few hundred years ago?
I think they attack artscroll for the same reason they don't use punctuation.
If you can learn mostly without artscroll, don't use the English without thinking at all. I think that thinking about it helps a lot in remembering the Gemara.
ReplyDeletei did Brachos and eruvin w/o artscoll and remeber it well.
ReplyDeletei did shabbos with artscroll and i don't remeber it as well.
thinking about the translation of the words helps u remeber? i guess it's possible. but u can't compare shabbos with brachos (which u learned many times) or with eruvin (which u just did).
ReplyDeletebtw,
u prob. should use a blogger name when commenting
i think the problem of artscroll lies mostly within young kids and yeshiva students. they wont pay attention in shiur if they know they can simply look in an artscroll before a test or whatever. and even if they intend to use it as a tool and only lok when absolutely necessary, for most kids the temptation is too hard and they'd revert entirely to the english side after a short amount of time. in this way theyll never pick up the necessary skills and theres no way to stop them. otherwise artscroll is all good
ReplyDeleteo yeah, and in my opinion puctuated gemaras r great fo fledgling gemara students, for obvious reasons
ReplyDeleterw dislikes artscroll
ReplyDeleteThe fact of the matter is, struggling over translation does help you remember.
ReplyDeleteAs to the punctuated Gemara, people at all levels have managed for 100s of years without punctuation in their Gemara, and it's helped their thought process; no reason to rock the boat. Besides, the punctuation is not always clear, and Rabbis can get it wrong. Anyway, if they really can't figure it out, they can look in Artscroll, which is how Artscroll should be used, as a last resort.
As to Rashi, he can be learned a) you can't expect someone to be able to read w/o Rashi (but you can expect him to read w/o punctuation, it's been done for a while now), b) Rashi is much, much more complex than the simple way we see him in 5th grade, and so we're not really looking at an open and easy text (like Artscroll).
And there's a serious problem with the footnotes: they explain, i painstaking detail, the logic of even the really simple steps of the Gemara.
If you don't exercise you're musclees, they'll wither. Same w/ your mind. What was the name of that Tanna who lived in a not-so-great community and forgot all his Torah?
why dont we stop using puncuation in all books and seforim? just have a straight string of text!
ReplyDeleteobviously we dont do that b/c it would make it harder to read w/o reason. when the gemara was written, they prob. hadnt invented puncuation yet..
another point:
ReplyDeletehow is having a (5th - 10th grade) rebbe explain the gemara better than using artscroll?
the rebbe reads it for u, transalates it, punctuates it, and explains it. u do even less work!
with artscroll at least ur reading it and figuring it out. u also can go at ur own pace without missing a/t or being bored out of ur mind. u can choose which footnotes to read, etc.
The Pele Yoetz once infamously wrote that it is better to learn torah in a language you can understand than in a language you can't. The truth is that not all of us who are machshiv torah are scholars of loshon kodesh. Also, Glunker is right- at least with the Artscroll Shas, one is reading the text of the Gemara for themselves and is grappling with understanding the text for themselves. Nowadays, it seems that one's rebbi simply tells the bocherim b'shiur what the text means and that's it. Having Artscroll is like being in a yeshiva beis medresh, except it is at your fingertips at all times. Baruch HaShem, one can learn gemara whenever they want. Thanks to Artscroll, Feldheim, Moznaim, and others, there has never been such a surge in torah learning before. Harbotzas torah is at an all-time high, and we are getting closer to the days of Moshiach with increased torah lishma and limud. Artscroll serves a very important purpose for all of us.
ReplyDeleteThanx for the comment.
ReplyDeleteI realized i can't use artscroll as my main gemara, (especially not when learning with a chavrusa) since everything is explained right away, and you don't nec. realize all the issues or learn to read... but artscroll is very useful for 2 reasons - when u need help figuring out how to read a gemara (either b/c of wrds or complexity) and when u have a question on the gemara. artscroll's fn's r amazingly helpful.
But i did decide there was no pt. in not having paragraphs and punctuation, and so i bought a shtienzaltz. ppl said "how can u use shtienzaltz, then there's no struggle over where the period is, its not amelus" see above. But i asked my GF shlita, and he was for it. He also mentioned that in the old kisvei yad, there was some sort of punctuation, it was prob just too hard for the printers to put in. (Though the beginning of berachos duz have some periods, it sort of tapers off at some pt, i guess it was getting too hard to put)
as for the tzuras hadaf (made by some goyish printer) i c no reason to keep it. it migth b true that its harder to find s/t u lrn'd on a diff tzuras hadaf, but i'll be using shtienzaltz when i try finding s/t. a/w it has an index, and u can use bar-ilan. it doesn't seem like a very big issue.
the reason ppl r againsts these things is not the fake reasons they say. theyre against the ID of change, or of realizing they've been struggling in vain, or of looking stupid reading from an easier gemara.
There are a number of points I would like to make
ReplyDelete1) One of the comments that were written before got me a bit by surprise I quote:
"Which brings me to a third point. Why don't people use punctuated gemaras? Why don't they make a new gemara with a redone daf now that they have computers instead of using an old hand-set format printed by some gentile a few hundred years ago?"
Let me ask you a Q, you want to tell me that the "BLETER" of gemara have no meaning and they just happen to e on those pages?? i.e when you tell your rosh Yeshiva Berochos 33: I hope his eyes will shine from remebring what that blat said, you can't reverse it the words of the gemara became one with the amudim and dafim that they are written in, and if I may add that I beleive that it was so meant to be from above and I would have a hard time chnging things.
Infact that was one of the complaints people had against Shtainzaltz origonal print of the gemara that he changed Tzurat hadaf"
2)While I agree with alot of the thoughts mentioned before about artscoll, I want to remind you that torah is infinent and there is plenty what to earn beyond the 1 or 2 pirushim that the arscroll brings in footnotes! and analyze them in depth, and there are no excuses for not being a gadol batorah because of "artscroll!
Which reminds me of the story of the Tzemach Tzedek, his grandfather the Baal HaTanys wanted to give him a blessing for Hatzlacha in limud, and he declined saying: that he wantsd to toil over torah", many years later he said that he was foolish for not exepting the berocho because he could of had a beracha for hatzlocha and there would have been enough for him to toil over.
ther e are more comments that I wpould like to share but I would save them for a differet time
Chicago, IL
artscroll should not bused under 25
ReplyDelete